Defeating the Beast: Fighting Grey Knights Article #9

The Horde Approach

This will be the last article in the series and covers the final approach that I think works very well when considering how to defeat Grey Knights. In a lot of ways, this final approach actually works very well with a lot of other armies as well. The Horde Approach is really an extension of the Sustained Durability approach. I’m singling it out as a special type because I think it warrants further discussion.

The Horde Approach is probably NOT the first thing that comes to your mind. When I say Horde, most people go directly to Orks and Tyranids. Both of these armies can execute some portions of the Horde approach, but honestly, they don’t fit every aspect of what makes the most effective Horde Approach. When thinking about the Horde Approach, you should be thinking about the combination of a ton of durable bodies, the sustained durability portion, and some withering style firepower or assault. This was all touched on in the Sustained Durability approach as well, and probably refreshing yourself on that article will help as this article moves forward.

How It Works

The best mindset for making the Horde Approach work is to NOT think of it in terms of overwhelming your opponent. Instead, you should be thinking about FRUSTRATING your opponent’s effort to defeat you. The concept of overwhelming your opponent comes from that Ork mentality where I put 180 boyz on the board and execute ORK WAVE ATTACK to wash over my opponent like an unstoppable tsunami. Although this type of approach will work against some GK lists, against Purifier spam, probably the most common type, it will fail due to cleansing flame.

What we want is to cause our Grey Knight opponent to become frustrated. The Horde Approach excels at this tactic because while you maintain a Horde, it is very difficult for your opponent to shift you, by that meaning force you to move any given direction or to “kill you” off a certain portion of the board. You’ll constantly be contesting objectives as you add more fodder to the fight. You’ll constantly be occupying portions of the board and making yourself as annoying as possible to kill.

Let’s run a thought experiment on what I would consider a good Horde list. The Blood Angels infantry horde would consist of a ballpark of 70-80 MEQ bodies backed up by a few points of Feel No Pain. Further, a sprinkling of heavy weapons will allow the Horde to apply a withering firepower to the enemy over many turns.

Take this example army and deploy it widely across the field. Against Grey Knights, recognize that their main threat range is 24 inches. Past that, the majority of GK lists only bring two types of long range firepower, Psybolt Dreads and Psybacks. If I stay out of potential 30 inch threat range (30 because they can move 6 and fire) during deployment, this will force them to be more aggressive or lose a turn of shooting. That loss of a turn plays into my hands because it’s yet another turn that he isn’t taking down models. The bottom line will be, as you see, that the less models he takes down, the more you win.

He can fire his long range guns, but Psybolt Dreads will only average about 1 Dead MEQ a turn. That’s not even going to be a dent in the Horde. Psybacks will most likely be blown off in droves due to the 3+/FnP. Now, let’s further frustrate him by putting lots of our models out of line of site, in reserve, or against the back table edge. Each turn I go where he isn’t killing a substantial number of models frustrates his ability to win the game.

Further, and this is why this approach really works versus GKs, once he steps into that 24 inch kill zone, he is also in your primary kill zone. As a Blood Angel Horde, you also have a lot of Bolters. They aren’t very good, but 70-80 of them will kill Purifiers, very slowly. And the beauty of this is, you will take infantry losses a lot slower than he does.

Finally, your withering long range fire power will be slowly bleeding him. The goal is to outlast and frustrate. The last tactic will be in a Kill Point game, when a squad gets near death, hide it. Since you don’t have any easy to claim KPs and HE DOES (because of vehicles), you can seriously deny his ability to claim them.

The Assault

A Grey Knight player forced into this predicament really only has two tactical options. (One of the greatest things about this approach is that it really controls how your opponent will end up playing.) Your opponent will either attempt to claim mid-field objectives and keep you at bay, or he will be forced to assault you. The reason is that assault is generally the easiest way to kill off multiple models. Before I address the claiming of mid-field, let’s talk about his assault options.

Most GK lists that you will find dedicate one or two assault units. The rest are general MSU squads. The thing is, a 5 man Purifier Squad is no threat to the horde in assault. Only 3 of the guys have real weapons, and against a 10 man squad, they are going to be toast so long as you brought a fist or power weapon of your own.

The goal when dealing with the dedicated assault units is to forego all shooting at other targets and fire everything into the assault units. You will have the ability to do this effectively because you aren’t concerned about shutting down other targets to prevent losses. You are already very sturdy thanks to the Horde. Whittle them down, and then swarm them when they finally get there. Coincidentally, use the “swarm” assault to allow for consolidation moves to help slingshot you into mid-field for late game objective grabbing.

The Mid-Field Objectives

Here, the name of the game is that hopefully your withering firepower has disabled a lot of his long range guns. It’s not time to execute the “Human Wave” attack that you have been purposefully holding back for this long. The tactic in this case should be to overload one objective so that you can clear it and otherwise to simply contest the others. Contesting might be moving one squad up to contest. The game doesn’t end? No sweat, that squad dies and then another steps up. Use the squads which have been depleted for this kind of task.

And lastly note that if you can simply overwhelm most GK units, especially if they are MSU units or have been properly “withered” by your fire power.

Playing the Mission not the Game

The real reason why the Horde approach works is because you are playing the mission and not the opponent. You have the luxury of doing this because your army is so sturdy. The Grey Knight player will generally not have such a luxury, especially in a Kill Point game. Deny him kill points. Claim a few of his and run. Don’t play friendly on this one.

For Roll Dice and Tie, play for the Tie. That’s the best advice I can give with the Horde approach, and playing for the tie should be easy. Buffer your objective with all of your troops, and he’ll never chop his way to it.

For objectives, overload to claim and other wise contest as described above.

Example Armies

So, here are some example armies to help you see where I am going with this.

Horde Blood Angels:

HQ:
Librarian – 100 (Shield for extra cover saves, Unleash for a swarm attack)

Elites:

3 x Sang Priests – 150 (to be distributed around effectively for FnP bubbles)

2 x 5 x Sternguard + 2 x Lascannons (simply there to add withering fire at vehicles, easy to get KPs)

Troops:

10 x Assault Marines + Power Fist – (for a counter-assault if you need one)

10 x Tactical Marines + Lascannon + Plasma + Fist – 210 (more withering fire)

10 x Tactical Marines + Lascannon + Plasma + Fist – 210 (more withering fire)

10 x Tactical Marines + Lascannon + Plasma + Fist – 210 (more withering fire)

Heavy:

10 x Dev Squads + 4 x Missile – 210 (see a pattern yet?)

10 x Dev Squads + 4 x Missile – 210

10 x Dev Squads + 4 x Missile – 210

Total: 1985 # of Bodies: 84 (don’t forget you can combat squad against other kinds of opponents)

Horde Sisters of Battle

HQ:

Kyrinov – 90 (Fearless bubble will keep you from running if shot up or assault)

5 x DCA + 5 x Crusaders – 150 (counter assault unit)

Saint Celestine – 115 (best SC in the game. Talk about an objective contesting unit!)

Elites:

5 x Celes + Multi Melta – 90 (withering fire)

5 x Celes + Multi Melta – 90 (withering fire)

5 x Celes + Multi Melta – 90 (withering fire)

Troops:

10 x Battle Sisiters + Multi Melta + Melta Gun + Power Sword – 155 (they score, lots of bodies, more heavy weapons)

10 x Battle Sisiters + Multi Melta + Melta Gun + Power Sword - 155

10 x Battle Sisiters + Multi Melta + Melta Gun + Power Sword - 155

10 x Battle Sisiters + Multi Melta + Melta Gun + Power Sword - 155

10 x Battle Sisiters + Multi Melta + Melta Gun + Power Sword - 155

10 x Battle Sisiters + Multi Melta + Melta Gun + Power Sword - 155

Heavy:

10 x Retributors + 4 x Heavy Bolters (super durable and can kill tanks or Purifiers with ease)

10 x Retributors + 4 x Heavy Bolters (super durable and can kill tanks or Purifiers with ease)

10 x Retributors + 4 x Heavy Bolters (super durable and can kill tanks or Purifiers with ease)

Total: 1990 # of Bodies: 117

Horde Space Marines (Keep in mind that Space Marines and CSM don’t do a good a job of this as newer books because they currently need updates to adjust their point levels more appropriately)

HQ:

Darnath – 200 (beat stick plus can tie up heavy assault units) - 200

Elites:

5 x Stern Guard + 2 x Lascannons – 155 (withering fire)

5 x Stern Guard + 2 x Lascannons – 155 (withering fire)

5 x Stern Guard + 2 x Lascannons – 155 (withering fire)

Troops:

10 x Tactical Marines + lascannon + plasmagun + fist – 215

10 x Tactical Marines + lascannon + plasmagun + fist - 215

10 x Tactical Marines + lascannon + plasmagun + fist - 215

Heavy:

10 x Devs + 4 x Missiles – 230

10 x Devs + 4 x Missiles - 230

10 x Devs + 4 x Missiles - 230

Total: 2000 # of Bodies: 76 (see how BA does this better ??)

Horde Dark Eldar – (keep in mind that a 4+ cover save is still pretty good for cheap units)

HQ:

A few Haemoncs

Elites:

Harlequins make an excellent counter assault unit which is almost impossible to kill at range.

Troops:

20 x Warriors w/ 2 x Dark Lance (huge block that can have FnP and provides withering fire)

10-15 Wyches – (tie up units and are very frustrating)

Fast:

Beast Packs make an excellent hold back and harass unit

Scourges can be both anti-infantry and anti-tank

Conclusion

There are more lists of course, and you can always go with Orks and Tyranids who can do this very well. Orks especially as they have more shooting capacity than Tyranids. The point is to follow the concept. This will play 40K a lot differently than what most people are used to. It can work though if played properly.

Finally, as on the podcast we are briefly discussing certain armies and how they would be played against Grey Knights in different ways. Although our podcast will cover this last article, on the final installment of RALPH (RALPH 10), we will cover the remaining armies which is not done here on the BLOG.

Defeating the Beast: Fighting Grey Knights Article #8

The Matching Firepower Approach

This is article number 8 in this series, and as the previous two articles, this article will discuss yet another strategic approach to taking down the Grey Knight scourge that is plaguing the galaxy. The two previously discussed approaches more or less relied on simply outlasting the Grey Knights in a fight and winning based on the mission. This will be the first approach which seeks to win the game by simply killing the enemy.

The Matching Firepower Approach seeks to win the game by simply matching the Grey Knights, blow for blow, with your own firepower. From there, the trick is to then be able to leverage cheaper units to achieve that net result. In this way, you can seek to leverage the Grey Knight weakness of “spendy” units.

Before I begin truly addressing this approach, I wanted to first issue a disclaimer of sorts. The ability for this approach to succeed will depend very highly on the type of list the Grey Knight player is seeking to run. This approach works wonders when you are playing against a “Purifier” list, Paladin list, or Grey Knight Hammer list. It loses strength when playing against a more MSU heavy Grey Knight list or Henchmen list. Dreadnought Spam lists, depending on the match-up, may also be your bane. The reason why I even consider this a valid approach, however, is that basically the approach works except in some special cases. Even in those special cases, if your list is properly optimized, you generally still have a fighting chance to simply out-play or out-roll your opponent. So, it’s validity as an approach is in that the majority of lists you face won’t be your anathema, and even if they are, you still have a fighting chance of outplaying your opponent.

Matching Firepower

The idea here is simple. Either simply outshoot him or match his firepower! This is really only possible for very certain lists. Mostly, I think Space Wolves, Imperial Guard, Black Templar, and Dark Eldar. Of course I’m known for hating on the Dark Eldar (jokingly so), but see the disclaimer above as to why I think that they can make this work.

So, how do these armies go about matching the Grey Knight fire power? It’s really simple. Use the same kinds of MSU, spam lists you already know exist. Use them well. Here’s how it works.

Personally, I play a henchmen based, dread spam list which basically seeks to outshoot my opponents. I am exactly the Grey Knight player that you DON’T want to try this approach against. However, tournament after tournament, list after list that I see, go for Purifiers or Paladins which is exactly what you WANT to play against. Conventional “internet” wisdom tells Grey Knight players that they don’t “need” more than three Psybolt Dreads. Now, I could pose all kinds of reasons why that logic fails, BUT this is an article on how to defeat Grey Knights… not how to build Grey Knights!

The Rock on Rock

At the end of the day, the Matching Firepower approach should be more seeking to burn the Grey Knights out rather than trying to obliterate them. The idea is that both of your lists smash each other to pieces, but at the end of the day, you win because you have a lot of cheap units still functional to take objectives, pick up a few last KPs, or what have you. Guard and Wolves exemplify this type of play. After the smoke clears, you simply want more bodies than your opponent has to hold and contest. Be thinking about this as a war to crush each other rather than a battle in which you will attempt to table your opponent.

As a GK player, I want my opponent to focus on killing me rather than winning the game. The reason why is that he will make moves and sacrifices to that end rather than to the objective of the game. This type of maneuvering makes it easier for me to operate with my own scoring units as well as to counter my opponent’s moves.

Lastly, and I haven’t said this enough, stop trying to throw in that “fun” hammer unit. (Specifically, Space Wolf Players, Thundercav don’t work. Period.)

All Hail Razor Wolves

So, they are still quite functional! This seems like an about face from all the advice I have delivered thus far about not running walls of AV 11 vehicles. It’s not, though, for several reasons. First and foremost because the entire back bone of this strategic approach is gambling that you won’t run into a henchman MSU spam list. This may or may not be a safe gamble for your local meta. However, every list takes a gamble. At the end of the day, though, Razor Wolves, properly built, still bring a tremendous amount of fire power to the table that even my henchmen spam lists will fear. Let’s face it, 15 split target missiles backed up by 9 or so lascannons and Wolf scouts is still an equation that works. As a Grey Knight player, I know that if I roll badly, get my fortitudes shut down by an annoying Rune Priest, and so on, I can easily lose that match-up.

Yet, let’s focus on what most of us see in Grey Knights. Purifiers. These guys rely on short-ranged Psycannons to do the dirty, else they are assaulting. Now, if you are a good Razor Wolf player, I shouldn’t have to cover the topic of how to handle assaulting units. The Psycannons though need to be addressed. The tactics here are deceptively simple. First, use scouts to disable Dreads (take melta bombs, they work and that comes from experience getting nailed in the face as a GK player). Second, constantly move so that they can’t fire their guns in Heavy mode. And as a result, target their Heavy Bolter backs, first. Third, stay in cover. Heavy Bolter backs are decent, but at the end of the day, they aren’t that great. I know. I run a lot of them!

Honestly, the easy way to beat Purifiers, especially the MSU kind, is to force them to keeping moving. Meanwhile, putting anti-infantry fire into them that causes wounds to wrap around in the squad helps a ton. Razor Wolves can do this easily. Another “pisser” for Purifiers is that they will want to target your tanks. This leaves your infantry actually pretty darn safe to just stand there and plink away at them or to threaten with assault. This seems “dumb” to most Razor Wolf players who are used to cowering in their metal boxes, but think about it for a bit, and you will realize that a hidden weakness of Purifiers is that they combine their anti-infantry and anti-tank into a single unit which can only do one or the other in a given turn.

Paladin lists are a bit more trouble because your lascannons will always get shuffled onto Draigo. At the end of the day, though, this is still a winning gambit for you and a situation in which you can outplay your opponent. This would sound dumb but consider tanking shocking repeatedly with all your vehicles as a valid tactic. Keep in mind he’s probably got 800 or so points wrapped up in that unit so having to lose a few pawns to take down the queen is totally valid.

Dark Eldar, really?

Are you playing a well optimized Dark Eldar list? If not, then don’t even read the rest of this statement. If you are, then you should realize that with the amount of Dark Glance (read also Blasters) shots you have, you should be able to match them. Once again, we are working with an underpinned assumption about Purifiers and Paladins. An MSU Grey Knight will still probably destroy you. That being said, at least you have a fighting chance in this case. Even with my henchmen spam lists, I still sweat if I have to play a DE player with 25+ Darklight shots who has first turn on me. I know, I should just reserve right? See, smart Dark Eldar players want you to do that so they can line your board edge with vehicles.

I’m not saying this will work all the time, but it is a thought. Indeed, I think it will work most of the time against most Grey Knight lists I see. I still consider this though to be a weak match-up against more optimized GK shooting lists.

Guard

This is easy. The more cover save ignoring shots you have (read Manticores), the easier you can pull this off. Really, Guard have all the tools they need or ever needed to fight GKs. This should sound like a reoccurring theme at this point!

Templar

Because the amount of S9 Missiles hurt! A lot! Combine that with the potential to suicide some melta pods in later turns to kill Dreads. This one is straight forward as well. The most likely rumor right now too is that Templar are getting a sweet Phil Kelly dex in the next few months anyways.

Conclusion

At the end of the day, the point of this approach is really easy. You seek to smash the opponent and win in later turns. This is the “no duh!” approach, but it’s still valid to consider that even as powered as that Grey Knight dex is, it’s still quite possible to defeat it straight up. The biggest reason for that is generally surrounding the types of lists that players are actually taking.

Article Number 9 will cover the “Horde” approach specifically. No, I don’t mean Orks. This is an extension of the “Sustained Durability” approach which deserves its own article. That will be the last approach in the series.

Defeating the Beast: Fighting Grey Knights Article #7

Continuingon the discussion from Article #6 on strategic approaches to defeat Grey Knights, this article will discussion another strategic approach to playing again against the Grey tide. The last article was about the AV 12+ approach which mostly applies to Guard, Blood Angels, Eldar, and to some extent, Necrons. The strategic approach in this article I’ll name the “sustained” approach.

As an aside, these strategic approaches not only work individually but also in tandem. Any time you can combine two more strategic approaches in your list or game, your overall effectiveness in taking down Grey Knights will actually improve.

The “Sustained” Approach

Two of the weaknesses found in the typical Grey Knight that were previously discussed were the lack of AP 1 & 2 weapons as well as lack of significant ranged fire. When we combine these two thought processes, we land on a strategic list building approach which can leverage both of those weaknesses to create a list theory which will rely on simply outlasting the Grey Knights, and the way in which that will be accomplished is by combining durability and range to create a long-term, or sustained game, in which you can whittle the Grey Knight player down. Over many game turns, eventually, you can either overcome them or chop them down to size so that you are on equal footing and able to compete in any mission type.

So, what will this approach look like? It will either generate a superior durability or combine moderate durability with fire reduction principles and playing the missions. Let’s talk about what this means in general before getting to the approach punch list.

Superior Durability

The first thing that should come to mind is a 2+ save. Before we even consider rolls to hit and wounds, a 2+ save immediately reduces all incoming fire power from Grey Knight armies by 83%. The reason why is that Grey Knights just don’t have any AP 2 guns. Continuing that thought, you don’t really need Storm Shields unless you plan on engaging the Grey Knights in Assault where their Power Weapons can now be leverage. See, a Grey Knight player, if faced with having to take down 2+ save models in mass would prefer to assault you UNLESS you also have storm shield. In that case, shy of Death Cult Assassins, he doesn’t have a lot of options for easily taking you down. This line of thinking is getting way off course, but it is worth handling upfront.

What I really want to point out is how good a 2+ save is versus Grey Knight shooting. However, it isn’t THAT great. Grey Knight armies generally lay down some ferocious anti-infantry fire. A 2+ save will help tremendously, but it isn’t enough by itself to have superior durability. The reason why is that a model with a 2+ generally also has a very high price in points.

See, durability should not be measured in terms how survivable a given model is. It should also be measured in the quantity of models. The easy way to think about this is that a single Marine is fairly durable in terms of the 40K universe. However, 10 Marines in a squad is very durable. 10 Plague Marines are SUPER durable with a 3+, 5 toughness, and FnP. Digging deeper, a single Plague Marine isn’t as durable as 2 Space Marines. However, 10 Plague Marines is way more durable than 10 Space marines. Get where I’m going with this? Think about how durable a 30 man Ork mob is in cover. Even more than Plague Marines!

Having a few models with a 2+ save is great! Having 30 of them would make you have superior durability. Now, there aren’t too many lists that can pack those kinds of numbers.

We need SUPERIOR durability. To do this, we need to combine quality and quantity into the most efficient anti-infantry shirking force we can. This should combine elements like FnP, a decent save, rerolls, unit size, wound allocation, special rules, and a mass of other things to create durability.

The last thing to consider here is that durability should also be measured in your ability to reduce the incoming fire power throughout all turns. For example, my standard GK lists can usually down around 13 MEQs on average a turn. That’s great at full bore! However, if you are shooting back at me, and I’m taking casualties, I should stay at full firing power for very long. When my fire power starts going down, your durability goes up. Get it?

This concept leads into the next discussion…

Fire Reduction

Because reducing enemy fire makes you more durable, most lists will need to incorporate the kinds of fire power which will seek to reduce the firing potential of the Grey Knight list. This could take on many forms. For example, manipulating the effective 24 inch range of a Grey Knight player is Fire Reduction. If your army can stay out of the 24 inch bubble, you are severely reducing the ability of the GK player to kill you.

Fire Reduction could also be specifically taking units which, even if suicidal, will significantly reduce the enemy’s fire effectiveness. For example, a DDM (Dreadnought in a Drop Pod with a Multi Melta) is generally designed in most lists to serve this roll. (I don’t actually think they are very good at it, but the point is easy to make.) They drop in, pop something nasty, then die. In the case of a Grey Knight player, that suicide drop would probably be against a Psybolt Dread, which isn’t a bad trade provided you kill it.

Fire Reduction could also just purely be lots of “pew pew” on your end. After all, if the GK player is taking losses, his fire power is being reduced, right?

It could simply be hiding out of LoS. That one is easy if you play with enough terrain.

The goal of Fire Reduction is to mitigate the casualties you take throughout the game. This increases your durability. The long you know you will be in the game allows you to manipulate the final point which is…

Playing to the Mission

The last goal of this approach will be to play the mission. This might mean playing the length of the mission, taking a few losses, and then leaping out on turn 5 to claim/contest some objectives, and win. It might be killing a few Grey Knight Razorbacks to claim some easy KPs then run like a school girl to hide in the corner.

The longer your army can stay near max efficiency, the more options you will have late game to play to the mission.

A Final Word

The Sustained Approach isn’t going to be the cup of tea for everyone out there. So many of us play this game for the carnage and dramatic battles aspect. The sustained approach is generally more like the slow, plodding, turtle approach. It wins races, but it doesn’t generally look good doing it.

That doesn’t mean that there aren’t some armies which can leverage the sustained approach very well versus Grey Knights and still do a lot of damage. Black Templar come to mind here as does Guard, of course. Demons also come to mind, in some ways. However, many effective sustained approaches might end up being kind of boring looking like Blood Angel gun lines, MEQ Hordes, or others.

The key to really mastering the sustained approach is to think first about how you will weather the storm and win in the end before you think about how you will kill the enemy.

Key Points to the Sustained Approach

- You need to achieve superior durability. Do this through either staying out of line of sight, providing a QUANTITY of survivable models, or a combination of withering fire power and survivability. Examples: A MEQ horde with durable fire support like a Blood Angel MEQ horde with FnP, or a Space Marine horde in general. A bucket load of gaunts, so thick as to be impassable. An army of terminators. Even better, an army of terminators with Feel no Pain. A blocking, suicidal, or fierce army with just a few elements which can be killed due to LoS or target saturation that will win in the end.

- It is highly preferable to achieve some kind of withering and sustained fire power. Think 10 man squad of Devastators with FnP in cover. They will be shooting for most of the game and require a ton of fire to silence. They are generally pretty good for silencing one GK gun a turn. Vehicles or units that can fire over 24 inches and stay out of prime GK fire range are also good examples.

- You need to be able to play to the basic mission types of Kill Points and Seize Ground. So, that means you need a way to mitigate your KPs in a KP scenario and also able to claim late game objectives or contest. Remember that a lot of GK lists function best as MSU lists and thus also give up a lot of KPs. This could be part of your strategy.

- Mobility is generally key to this kind of list type. You need to be able to move, not early in the game but LATE in the game. That’s the hard part.

Examples

I realize that the discussion behind this approach has been fairly cerebral. So, here’s some examples.

Suicide “Dar

I had a list concept running for a while which combines small squads of Guardian Jetbikes who provide a durable element by going into reserve, then using JSJ to stay out of LoS. It achieves superior durability because the other 75%+ of the points going into hyper-directed suicide units designed to cripple the effective shooting elements in an army. Think fire dragons, warlocks, etc. whose job it is to make a mess of the enemy for 3-4 turns which when the dust settles leaves them with little to shoot at bikes with. This achieves superior durability through target priority and list.

MEQ Horde

Think about how hard it would be to kill 70 or so Marines if you had nothing to do it with but Storm Bolters. Exactly. Grey Knights will want to assault this kind of list, but you can mitigate that with speed bumps, rhinos, your own counter-assault elements, etc. Make sure that some of this Horde can plink some long range shots to slowly whittle down enemy vehicles and also stop a Land Raider, and you got yourself superior durability. The key here is to focus on winning the mission, not killing the enemy.

Black Templar Terminator Lists

Here’s a great specific example. Black Templar have the ability to take 4-5 squads of Terminators with Tank Hunter Cyclones. This is great because it combines a lot of 2+ save bodies and sustained fire reduction. You will be killing a few GK vehicles a turn, while staying away from the enemy to leverage your 2+ save. You don’t need storm shields because you will avoid combat. It also has storm bolters so you can return the favor and whittle down GK squads.

The relatively not hungry Nid horde / not so WAAAGHY Ork Horde

Say what? You know how most Nid players think “CHARGE!” What if you thought, “sit in mid and make them come to me while I hide and/or spawn a bajillion termagaunts?” This goes for Orks too. Every tried shooting up an Ork mob that goes to ground in cover? It laughs at you. You’ll need a plan to manage Purifiers, though. So, keep that in mind. Nids are better at this than Orks when it comes to GKs. Orks, though can manage the suicide bit similar to the ‘Dar above much better, though.

Conclusion

At the end of the day, what most MSU Grey Knight lists don’t want to see is an army that can actually absorb all of its fire power. The reason is because they don’t have much to fall back on. Now, this is not true of Grey Knight Hammer Lists, but it is certainly true of the spammy Purifier and MSU lists. The truth is, GKs only bring a mediocre HtH punch to the party with the exception of Death Cultists. So, when you can absorb all that shooting and still make a game out of it, they start to run out of options.